Artist Refik Anadol joins Heidi Zuckerman for a conversation about art, nature, memory, imagination, and the new forms of creativity made possible through technology. Refik describes data as an artistic material—a way of giving form to memories and information that would otherwise remain invisible. He and Heidi talk about his early fascination with computers, his desire to make the invisible visible, and the role dreaming and imagination play in his work. Their conversation moves deeply into the natural world. Refik shares his experiences with the Yawanawa people in the Amazon and a profound idea offered to him there: for them, nature is their AI—a living intelligence humans have not yet fully understood. He considers whether technology might now help us listen more closely to the natural world rather than move further away from it. They also discuss an extinct Hawaiian bird whose final recorded song appears in DATALAND, his personal connection to memory after losing his uncle to Alzheimer’s, what it means to collaborate with a machine, and the responsibility artists have to help us see differently. At the center of Refik’s work is a belief in art’s ability to transform perception—and his hope that what we make can leave meaningful memories behind.